Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to read about our experiences at the Knox County Fair. I am still reflecting on our experiences, but I am certain that our presence at the fair was an important outreach and educational endeavor. Even for those who did not choose to talk with us, just making ourselves visible in the community makes a statement. I am still overjoyed by the number of positive responses we received and by the support of the many volunteers who made this happen.
I am still sorting through all of our materials, but I can happily report that we collected:
--nineteen new email addresses and/or phone numbers for our mailing list
--$36.51, which will be split with the Delaware Gay-Straight Christian Alliance
We had plenty of literature available to passers by, and over 50 GSA pamphlets were taken. Of all of the rest of our literature, the "What the Bible Says (and Doesn't Say) about Homosexuality" booklets published by Soulforce, were the most popular.
So I'll end on a happy note. I am proud of our organization and glad to know that our hard work is making a difference. It may take some time, but I believe that in the end, we shall see justice.
Tuesday, August 4, 2009
Saturday, August 1, 2009
Day 7 - Saturday, August 1st (last day!)
1:41pm A lady stops by "What is the gay straight Christian alliance all about?" Tony explains. Lady: "Ok, well I just wanted to check." Tony then said, "We believe that God loves all people."
Lady: "That's right."
She continued to talk about how it's no big deal for her. She mentioned that she is a marketing person for a gutter company and asked about the Columbus Pride parade and festival. She explained that her company is thinking about having a booth there.
3:32pm A gentleman stopped by to tell is to continue the good work.
3:34pm Man walked by and put his arms up in the air and said "My people - they're here!" He was very positive.
4:25pm Two kids (about 8 or 9) asked about our booth. When Tony explained that we were straight and gay people who wanted to stop gay people from being hurt one of them said, "Oh, like racism." The other asked if we were all gay and Tony explained that some of us are and some of us aren't. He asked Tony if he and Larry were together and when he said no, one was straight and the other gay the little boy said/asked, "But you're friends?" They said "yes" and he took some literature and then said, "Ok, I'll go try and figure this out."
4:45pm A female college student stopped by to give positive reinforcement and take some information.
4:55pm Two families stopped by and got information and asked questions. The were very approving of what we are doing.
5:00pm Thom Collier (former State Rep for our district) waved as he walked past.
5:15pm A woman involved in HRC who knew Tony stopped by to chat for a while.
6:30pm Two young men walked by the booth and said "Knox County Gay Straight Alliance" disapprovingly. Then one of them shouted, "Silly faggot, dicks are for chicks."
Things slowed down dramatically after this. We had a few people stop by to say hello and take some literature (all friendly and positive). At 7:30pm we decided to pack up, talking down decorations and signs and putting away all the literature. Brett D. helped out, which was nice. He was a big help carrying things to the hill where we loaded them into the car. I hope to see him at some events this year.
Overall I think it was another successful year at the fair. I'll have to do some reflecting and write a final post later. Right now, I'm ready for bed!
Lady: "That's right."
She continued to talk about how it's no big deal for her. She mentioned that she is a marketing person for a gutter company and asked about the Columbus Pride parade and festival. She explained that her company is thinking about having a booth there.
3:32pm A gentleman stopped by to tell is to continue the good work.
3:34pm Man walked by and put his arms up in the air and said "My people - they're here!" He was very positive.
4:25pm Two kids (about 8 or 9) asked about our booth. When Tony explained that we were straight and gay people who wanted to stop gay people from being hurt one of them said, "Oh, like racism." The other asked if we were all gay and Tony explained that some of us are and some of us aren't. He asked Tony if he and Larry were together and when he said no, one was straight and the other gay the little boy said/asked, "But you're friends?" They said "yes" and he took some literature and then said, "Ok, I'll go try and figure this out."
4:45pm A female college student stopped by to give positive reinforcement and take some information.
4:55pm Two families stopped by and got information and asked questions. The were very approving of what we are doing.
5:00pm Thom Collier (former State Rep for our district) waved as he walked past.
5:15pm A woman involved in HRC who knew Tony stopped by to chat for a while.
6:30pm Two young men walked by the booth and said "Knox County Gay Straight Alliance" disapprovingly. Then one of them shouted, "Silly faggot, dicks are for chicks."
Things slowed down dramatically after this. We had a few people stop by to say hello and take some literature (all friendly and positive). At 7:30pm we decided to pack up, talking down decorations and signs and putting away all the literature. Brett D. helped out, which was nice. He was a big help carrying things to the hill where we loaded them into the car. I hope to see him at some events this year.
Overall I think it was another successful year at the fair. I'll have to do some reflecting and write a final post later. Right now, I'm ready for bed!
Day 6 at the Fair - Friday, July 31, 2009
I worked the evening shift once again - this time starting a little later so I could walk the dog between work and the fair (since Victoria is out of town). It was just Larry and I holding down the evening shift, and I could just sense that something was going to happen. But, before I get to that, let me fill you in on what took place earlier in the day.
3:00pm A young lady stops by just to chat. She seems to be a very happy and loving person.
3:15pm A lady comes by hurriedly and requests as much information as possible. The more she spoke the more we realized we didn't have the type of information she desired. She explained that she is the leader of a battered ladies group and that one lady there is a "dyke" and the woman at our booth is afraid of her (the "dyke").
3:20pm A young boy decides to donate a dollar to us.
4:00pm A group of young boys shout out "fags" but still stop to take some of our candy.
6:21pm Two young girls stop by and donate $3.00. "It shouldn't matter what gender you are or what gender you love," they explain.
6:47pm Jeanne, the one person who has commented on the blog so far, stopped by to say hello and to show her support. She mentioned that she really liked our "God" signs (some of the signs that Larry made to decorate the booth have a religious theme).
7:14pm Dylan S. stops by to say "hi" and ask how things are going. Again, it's great to be visited by friends.
8:00pm A lady walked by, stopped and just said "Are you guys for it or against it?"
Larry responded, "For it" and she just continued on her way.
8:15pm Larry was at the booth by himself while I stepped away to go to the bathroom and take a walk. He said some boys came up to the booth and started shouting "faggots" at him. Then, a few of the boys ran around to the back of the tent and started banging on the walls of it.
Ok, so now comes the busy part of the evening, which is ironic, because it all took place just as the big concert was getting started. Larry and I were both pretty well engaged from this point on, so I don't have thorough notes of the interation, but I'll explain what happened from my perspective.
8:31pm Two boys walk up to the booth, one 18, the other probably the same age, to ask us about our faith and how we could be both gay and christian. During the course of the conversation we learned that the boys are from the Presbyterian church in town. In the conversation, which I tried to stay out of since I am not a religious person, they started fired question after question to Larry about his beliefs.
Boys: "Don't you believe that this bible is the word of God?"
Larry: "As written by man, yes."
Boys: "If it is the word of God, then it is perfect and everything in here is true. You have to believe what's in here is true."
Larry: "Well, it was written by people, and I don't believe that all of it is true. It's not like God has a stenographer with him who actually wrote down what God said."
Boys: "Actually he did. It was written by men who were told what to write by the holy spirit." The conversation continued like this for a few minutes, touching on some things such as evolution. When Larry asked why there are no mentions of dinosaurs in the bible the boys correct him and point out that Job saw a dinosaur. Larry asked, "Don't you believe that the earth is billions of years old?" And the boys replied, "No. God created the world around 6,000 years ago." It was interesting to watch these boys work. One, the tall boy, was louder and more persistent, but not the brightest. He kept mixing up his scripture: "they do mention gays in the New Testament...it's right there in Peter," and "Jesus said there were two rules. Love your neighbor like yourself...and...and...I forget the other one." However, he was very confident in himself and his arguments, no matter how convoluted. "I'm destroying you guys right now!" he exclaimed. When I pointed out that it isn't very loving to "destroy" someone he quickly retorted, "Oh no, I love you. I just am destroying all your arguments." The other boy seemed to be quite smart and articulate. It was clear this was a game for them - like a debate, something to be won or lost. The had a response to everything, and showed little interest in listening to what Larry had to say. They didn't say hateful things, and they didn't bash us or make fun of us or anything, but they were very animated, raised their voices and were very keen to tell us, nay prove to us, we were wrong.
After the whole dinosaur discussion, I turned my attention elsewhere. A small group of teens has assembled, some by the boys talking to Larry (their friends) and then another small group off to the side. "Let me know if you have any questions, and feel free to help yourself to any of the literature," I said to them. "Oh no thanks," they replied, "we're just listening." Turns out this group contained Mount Vernon High School students (and one recent graduate) who belonged to the Covenant Christian church in town. They asked if we've gotten a lot of reactions like we were getting from the two boys. "Last year people were more mean to us. This year we've just gotten a lot of people making religious arguments to us. I feel like I have half of Knox County praying for me at this point." Then they asked my about my personal faith. I told them I'm not a religious person, and while I think Jesus had some good ideas I don't believe he is the son of god. They seemed shocked to hear this - as if they'd never heard it before. "Aren't you saved?" one of them asked. My conversation with them was long but productive. I felt as if it was a genuine conversation. We were all listening to each other, learning about the other person's perspective and experience. They were much more conservative (evangelical) than I would have guessed, but weren't preachy, which was nice. For instance, when I explained that I didn't choose to be gay they seemed to understand that. But later in the conversation one boy said, "I can see how you might feel like you didn't have a choice. You seen, satan's minions are all around us, and they are devious and do devious things. I believe that they've convinced you that you are gay and that there is nothing you can do about it."
Later in the conversation I tried to engage them in more secular topics. I asked if they thought it was fair that GLBT folks can be discriminated against in house and employment. The agreed that it isn't fair. Then I asked about civil marriage and whether or not they think it is fair to deny that legal status to anyone. Some of them struggled with this question. They kept going back to religious marriage and talking about what God wants. I reminded them that I was talking about a legal status and nothing else. A few of them agreed that we should be allowed that status, but one boy still struggled. "I just have a really hard time taking the religious aspect out of it." Then that same boy mentioned the campaign against using the word gay to mean stupid (there is a clever ad campaign direct at teens that use the phrase "that's so gay" to mean "that's so stupid"). He said these ads were ineffective, that really we should just let it go in one ear and out the other and we'd be better off. I explained that I disagreed. That back in the day a lot of people though the blacks in the south would be better off if they just stayed quiet in the back of the bus." One of the girls then chimed in, "Yeah, if they aren't going to stand up for themselves, who is going to stand up for them?" Then, I asked them how they felt about people of other faiths - namely Muslims and Jews. "Well, really devout Muslims hate Christians. In the middle east if a Muslim sees a Christian he'll just pull out an AK-47 right away." I explained that this wasn't true and they didn't agree.
Just then Larry was finishing up with his group (which had multiplied like Gremlins in water) and I looked at my watch. It was 9:30pm meaning we had been at it for an hour. I told them we had to pack up and we all said goodbye. All in all it was a good conversation. They seemed like really good, if terribly misguided kids. Maybe it's the complete lack of diversity in Mount Vernon that accounts for some of the ignorance about people of other faiths. Whatever it is, it really needs to be rectified.
Here's what Larry had to say about his experience talking with the other group:
"Six boys jaunted by, eager to engage in a somewhat heated discussion regarding how they were really concerned about our welfare - that is how we could be Christian and claim to be homosexuals. Through their faith and 'Christianity' and homosexuality do not go hand in hand. 'Isn't the bible the literal word of God? And if someone does not believe that, then that person does not have faith in God's word. Homosexuality is not from God, nor are people born gay.' Many prayers were offered for our salvation. Some of the other comments made included: Job confronted a dinosaur which is described in the bible. Cavemen and women did not exist. Adam and Eve were pretty much like we are today. They didn't believe in evolution."
3:00pm A young lady stops by just to chat. She seems to be a very happy and loving person.
3:15pm A lady comes by hurriedly and requests as much information as possible. The more she spoke the more we realized we didn't have the type of information she desired. She explained that she is the leader of a battered ladies group and that one lady there is a "dyke" and the woman at our booth is afraid of her (the "dyke").
3:20pm A young boy decides to donate a dollar to us.
4:00pm A group of young boys shout out "fags" but still stop to take some of our candy.
6:21pm Two young girls stop by and donate $3.00. "It shouldn't matter what gender you are or what gender you love," they explain.
6:47pm Jeanne, the one person who has commented on the blog so far, stopped by to say hello and to show her support. She mentioned that she really liked our "God" signs (some of the signs that Larry made to decorate the booth have a religious theme).
7:14pm Dylan S. stops by to say "hi" and ask how things are going. Again, it's great to be visited by friends.
8:00pm A lady walked by, stopped and just said "Are you guys for it or against it?"
Larry responded, "For it" and she just continued on her way.
8:15pm Larry was at the booth by himself while I stepped away to go to the bathroom and take a walk. He said some boys came up to the booth and started shouting "faggots" at him. Then, a few of the boys ran around to the back of the tent and started banging on the walls of it.
Ok, so now comes the busy part of the evening, which is ironic, because it all took place just as the big concert was getting started. Larry and I were both pretty well engaged from this point on, so I don't have thorough notes of the interation, but I'll explain what happened from my perspective.
8:31pm Two boys walk up to the booth, one 18, the other probably the same age, to ask us about our faith and how we could be both gay and christian. During the course of the conversation we learned that the boys are from the Presbyterian church in town. In the conversation, which I tried to stay out of since I am not a religious person, they started fired question after question to Larry about his beliefs.
Boys: "Don't you believe that this bible is the word of God?"
Larry: "As written by man, yes."
Boys: "If it is the word of God, then it is perfect and everything in here is true. You have to believe what's in here is true."
Larry: "Well, it was written by people, and I don't believe that all of it is true. It's not like God has a stenographer with him who actually wrote down what God said."
Boys: "Actually he did. It was written by men who were told what to write by the holy spirit." The conversation continued like this for a few minutes, touching on some things such as evolution. When Larry asked why there are no mentions of dinosaurs in the bible the boys correct him and point out that Job saw a dinosaur. Larry asked, "Don't you believe that the earth is billions of years old?" And the boys replied, "No. God created the world around 6,000 years ago." It was interesting to watch these boys work. One, the tall boy, was louder and more persistent, but not the brightest. He kept mixing up his scripture: "they do mention gays in the New Testament...it's right there in Peter," and "Jesus said there were two rules. Love your neighbor like yourself...and...and...I forget the other one." However, he was very confident in himself and his arguments, no matter how convoluted. "I'm destroying you guys right now!" he exclaimed. When I pointed out that it isn't very loving to "destroy" someone he quickly retorted, "Oh no, I love you. I just am destroying all your arguments." The other boy seemed to be quite smart and articulate. It was clear this was a game for them - like a debate, something to be won or lost. The had a response to everything, and showed little interest in listening to what Larry had to say. They didn't say hateful things, and they didn't bash us or make fun of us or anything, but they were very animated, raised their voices and were very keen to tell us, nay prove to us, we were wrong.
After the whole dinosaur discussion, I turned my attention elsewhere. A small group of teens has assembled, some by the boys talking to Larry (their friends) and then another small group off to the side. "Let me know if you have any questions, and feel free to help yourself to any of the literature," I said to them. "Oh no thanks," they replied, "we're just listening." Turns out this group contained Mount Vernon High School students (and one recent graduate) who belonged to the Covenant Christian church in town. They asked if we've gotten a lot of reactions like we were getting from the two boys. "Last year people were more mean to us. This year we've just gotten a lot of people making religious arguments to us. I feel like I have half of Knox County praying for me at this point." Then they asked my about my personal faith. I told them I'm not a religious person, and while I think Jesus had some good ideas I don't believe he is the son of god. They seemed shocked to hear this - as if they'd never heard it before. "Aren't you saved?" one of them asked. My conversation with them was long but productive. I felt as if it was a genuine conversation. We were all listening to each other, learning about the other person's perspective and experience. They were much more conservative (evangelical) than I would have guessed, but weren't preachy, which was nice. For instance, when I explained that I didn't choose to be gay they seemed to understand that. But later in the conversation one boy said, "I can see how you might feel like you didn't have a choice. You seen, satan's minions are all around us, and they are devious and do devious things. I believe that they've convinced you that you are gay and that there is nothing you can do about it."
Later in the conversation I tried to engage them in more secular topics. I asked if they thought it was fair that GLBT folks can be discriminated against in house and employment. The agreed that it isn't fair. Then I asked about civil marriage and whether or not they think it is fair to deny that legal status to anyone. Some of them struggled with this question. They kept going back to religious marriage and talking about what God wants. I reminded them that I was talking about a legal status and nothing else. A few of them agreed that we should be allowed that status, but one boy still struggled. "I just have a really hard time taking the religious aspect out of it." Then that same boy mentioned the campaign against using the word gay to mean stupid (there is a clever ad campaign direct at teens that use the phrase "that's so gay" to mean "that's so stupid"). He said these ads were ineffective, that really we should just let it go in one ear and out the other and we'd be better off. I explained that I disagreed. That back in the day a lot of people though the blacks in the south would be better off if they just stayed quiet in the back of the bus." One of the girls then chimed in, "Yeah, if they aren't going to stand up for themselves, who is going to stand up for them?" Then, I asked them how they felt about people of other faiths - namely Muslims and Jews. "Well, really devout Muslims hate Christians. In the middle east if a Muslim sees a Christian he'll just pull out an AK-47 right away." I explained that this wasn't true and they didn't agree.
Just then Larry was finishing up with his group (which had multiplied like Gremlins in water) and I looked at my watch. It was 9:30pm meaning we had been at it for an hour. I told them we had to pack up and we all said goodbye. All in all it was a good conversation. They seemed like really good, if terribly misguided kids. Maybe it's the complete lack of diversity in Mount Vernon that accounts for some of the ignorance about people of other faiths. Whatever it is, it really needs to be rectified.
Here's what Larry had to say about his experience talking with the other group:
"Six boys jaunted by, eager to engage in a somewhat heated discussion regarding how they were really concerned about our welfare - that is how we could be Christian and claim to be homosexuals. Through their faith and 'Christianity' and homosexuality do not go hand in hand. 'Isn't the bible the literal word of God? And if someone does not believe that, then that person does not have faith in God's word. Homosexuality is not from God, nor are people born gay.' Many prayers were offered for our salvation. Some of the other comments made included: Job confronted a dinosaur which is described in the bible. Cavemen and women did not exist. Adam and Eve were pretty much like we are today. They didn't believe in evolution."
Friday, July 31, 2009
Day 5 at the Fair (Thursday 30 July 2009)
Here is a note from Kim and Tony who worked in the morning together:
at noon: An Asian woman, walking hand-in-hand with her aging mother, told use about her gay cousin who had tried more than once to commit suicide. She was amazed by the suicide statistics on the signs. They are from Holmes County and said they know about being different. Then the mother stepped up and said haltingly, "I have Alzheimer's and people look at me sometimes they stare and that hurts." We had a good talk about how it feels to be different and how it hurts when others don't accept us.
I joined Kim and Tony at 3:00 and was soon joined by Larry. Here are the notes from our interactions during the afternoon:
3:15 pm A lady passed by, read one of Larry's signs, and had a strange, disapproving look on her face. Tony said, "It's terrible how hate can hurt people" and she just looked disapprovingly and walked away.
3:25 pm A man named Ted Ryan from the booth across the way ("The Wordless Book") came by and introduced himself to Tony. He said "Jesus forgives sin but have to stop sinning." He and Tony talked for a bit and the man eventually wandered back to his tent.
3:52 pm Three teenage girls stared at us from maybe 15 feet away. One said "that's disgusting" and then they laughed at us.
During a lull in the four o-clock hour, Larry copied down a list of things that had been said to him by some cantankerous religious men on Tuesday (this was when I had heard too much, lost it and left the booth just to come back 40 minutes later to hear it STILL going on):
1. "Sex between a man and woman is for procreation only."
2. "Sex between 2 men or 2 women is an act of lust."
3. "Allowing marriage between 2 men or 2 women will lead to individuals marrying animals."
4. "Gays choose their orientation and need to pray for change. If change does not happen, a family member must take charge and prevent the individual from committing sexual sin."
5. When asked what he would do if his child was to gay, he said, "First of all, a child of his would not be born gay, as God would not permit such--however if that would happen, prayer would change him."
6. "All men and women can have children--and if that does not happen, the would-be parents are not praying correctly."
7. "Children who are born unwanted will be taken care of by God just like the birds of the field. I take care of my own family [and not other people's children] and that is what counts."
8. "Abomination applies only to gay people--especially those involved in sexual relations."
9. "Some Bibles are wrong. My bible is right. God wrote it."
10. While this confrontation was going on, a lady came by and told these men to get away from our booth as we are "vile people."
11. We also received some sneers and looks of objection!
Thank goodness we did not encounter this same level of hate on Thursday, but we did have some interesting discussions with more religious folk (this time, more civil and polite conversations) later in the evening. I was very happy to work with Kate when she arrived for the evening shift (we have not seen much of each other this week!). Larry worked with us as well and even treated us to smoothies near the end of the night, which were a treat! Here are some notes from the rest of the evening:
4:30 pm A young man (perhaps in his 20s?)--an adamant agnostic (my kind of person)--stopped by, asked us about our organization, signed up for the email list, and took literature. We had a fairly long conversation with him. What an interesting, articulate, and smart fellow! He asked specifically about the "Bible thumpers" and we told him about some of our experiences. He also said, "Four years ago I would have been one of them." It is nice to know that people have the ability to change and become more open-minded as they experience life.
4:45 pm A lesbian stopped by and said she had seen our fliers for the Pride event and the April Gay Jeopardy Game in Kroger (nice to know our publicity system works!). She took some literature and signed up for our email list. She said her friends in Columbus couldn't believe that there was a GSA in Knox County.
4:56 pm A group of young kids (12-14) walked past, and a boy read the sign, "Knox County Gay-Straight Alliance . . . I'm very straight. I am not gay."
5:18 pm A lady stopped by with her kids, took some literature, and signed up for our email list.
5:20 pm The Mullendores stopped by :). We got to meet their son, Seth.
5:25 pm Ted Ryan (the man from the Wordless Book booth) came back to our booth, and a 25-minute conversation ensued. He said he didn't want to argue but took issue with Larry's sign that read, "We are all children of God." He showed Larry a verse in the Bible that he construed to mean that you are not a child of god unless you are Christian and accept Jesus as your savior. He did eventually admit that God created us all and said, "but we aren't living the way we should." Larry agreed that none of us are perfect.
Then he told us a story about how he and his religious friends wet to protest a strip club in Mansfield, and how the strip club people kept quoting "Judge not lest ye be judged." He did not appreciate their quoting that passage and dismissed them. (But why were the passages that Mr. Ryan quoted somehow more valid than that one? I did not ask him that, but I wish I had.)
Kate asked him where he was from, what church he was from, and what the Wordless book was all about, to which he said it was an enterprise of "child evangelism." (And people talk about how WE want to convert CHILDREN!) Kate engaged him in another conversation on how he felt about Jewish people. He said, "I feel for them the same way I feel about you--I want to share my message about Jesus with you."
Throughout the entire conversation, he was very calm and polite, never mean, but steadfast in his convictions. I give him credit for remaining polite.
He did go on to talk about how he believed homosexuality is a sin and that people are born as sinners, attracted to sin. He gave examples of people raping people, beating their children, all because they are attracted to sin. That was when I realized that our fundamental disagreement is simple: He believes that being gay is a sin on par with other things I certainly detest--rape, murder, violence--and I believe that being gay is not a sin. I wish I had realized our simple disagreement then and said something. We could have agreed to disagree at that point and been done with it.
Larry shared his story with this man about being born gay, and Kate shared her feelings about being gay, too. I said to him that no one in their right mind would choose this.
6:23 pm Another person passing by asked us the now classic question, "Are you for gays?" Kate: "Yes." Smiling, the lady replied, "Just wanted to know, passed by earlier this week and we weren't sure." Kate: "Thanks for asking."
Soon after, teenage boys made the rock concert devil horns and gave us a whoop. Good stuff!
6:42 pm A man with his son said he gets our newsletter and is supportive. He also commented on Larry's signs, and told us a story about when he was in the military: There was a gay man named Ray who everyone called "Gay Ray" and nobody messed with him. So nice to have straight allies stop by and share their stories with us, too!
7:00 pm The Wargas stopped by the booth. Great to have such great friends! :)
7:08 A young lady stopped by and asked, "Do you have the blue and yellow [HRC] stickers? I had one on my old care but need one for my new one." She did take an EO bumper sticker, but we did not have any HRC ones.
A little later, A man asked if Dawn was here, and then told us that he was setting up a policy on sexual orientation at his church and took literature. What a nice, supportive guy!
7:35 pm My friend, the owner of Action Waste, stopped by and enthusiastically introduced me to his son, Jared. Nice folks! I highly recommend Action Waste. This company was the one who helped sponsor the Mount Vernon street clean-up project that the GSA participated in a few months ago.
7:38 pm A mysterious kid rushed by the booth and said to Larry, "I was told by the carnies to give you this" and gave hima poster of a naked woman on a beach. Hmmm. . .
7:51 pm Larry is so popular! I met more of his friends, Art and Shelly, from Faith Lutheran.
7:58 pm The mom & a friend of a friend of the GSA stopped by and gave us a donation.
8:25 pm A teenage girl named Brooklyn came by and said she had a few questions for us. She asked us what we belived regarding the Bible and Jesus, to which Kate replied: "I'm not a Christian." Larry told his story about it not being a choice. She said that the Bible shows that God says marriage is between a man and a woman. She asked, "Do you believe that God is all powerful? Then you should believe that be can change you." The conversation moved on to a discussion of biblical passages. When she was done, she politely shook Larry's hand, and she did take a Soulforce book. Hopefully she will read it.
As it got really close to closing time, two ladies we met last year stopped by to show their support, as did another small group of people. What a nice way to end the night!
I did not work Friday (today, the day I am posting this), but I heard that Larry and Kate got lambasted by two separate groups of teens. Wish I could have been there to help, but I tend to clam up anyhow and don't think of what to say until after they all leave. So stay posted, I am sure Kate will type her latest experiences soon.
Thank you for reading our blog entries, and thanks for your support.
at noon: An Asian woman, walking hand-in-hand with her aging mother, told use about her gay cousin who had tried more than once to commit suicide. She was amazed by the suicide statistics on the signs. They are from Holmes County and said they know about being different. Then the mother stepped up and said haltingly, "I have Alzheimer's and people look at me sometimes they stare and that hurts." We had a good talk about how it feels to be different and how it hurts when others don't accept us.
I joined Kim and Tony at 3:00 and was soon joined by Larry. Here are the notes from our interactions during the afternoon:
3:15 pm A lady passed by, read one of Larry's signs, and had a strange, disapproving look on her face. Tony said, "It's terrible how hate can hurt people" and she just looked disapprovingly and walked away.
3:25 pm A man named Ted Ryan from the booth across the way ("The Wordless Book") came by and introduced himself to Tony. He said "Jesus forgives sin but have to stop sinning." He and Tony talked for a bit and the man eventually wandered back to his tent.
3:52 pm Three teenage girls stared at us from maybe 15 feet away. One said "that's disgusting" and then they laughed at us.
During a lull in the four o-clock hour, Larry copied down a list of things that had been said to him by some cantankerous religious men on Tuesday (this was when I had heard too much, lost it and left the booth just to come back 40 minutes later to hear it STILL going on):
1. "Sex between a man and woman is for procreation only."
2. "Sex between 2 men or 2 women is an act of lust."
3. "Allowing marriage between 2 men or 2 women will lead to individuals marrying animals."
4. "Gays choose their orientation and need to pray for change. If change does not happen, a family member must take charge and prevent the individual from committing sexual sin."
5. When asked what he would do if his child was to gay, he said, "First of all, a child of his would not be born gay, as God would not permit such--however if that would happen, prayer would change him."
6. "All men and women can have children--and if that does not happen, the would-be parents are not praying correctly."
7. "Children who are born unwanted will be taken care of by God just like the birds of the field. I take care of my own family [and not other people's children] and that is what counts."
8. "Abomination applies only to gay people--especially those involved in sexual relations."
9. "Some Bibles are wrong. My bible is right. God wrote it."
10. While this confrontation was going on, a lady came by and told these men to get away from our booth as we are "vile people."
11. We also received some sneers and looks of objection!
Thank goodness we did not encounter this same level of hate on Thursday, but we did have some interesting discussions with more religious folk (this time, more civil and polite conversations) later in the evening. I was very happy to work with Kate when she arrived for the evening shift (we have not seen much of each other this week!). Larry worked with us as well and even treated us to smoothies near the end of the night, which were a treat! Here are some notes from the rest of the evening:
4:30 pm A young man (perhaps in his 20s?)--an adamant agnostic (my kind of person)--stopped by, asked us about our organization, signed up for the email list, and took literature. We had a fairly long conversation with him. What an interesting, articulate, and smart fellow! He asked specifically about the "Bible thumpers" and we told him about some of our experiences. He also said, "Four years ago I would have been one of them." It is nice to know that people have the ability to change and become more open-minded as they experience life.
4:45 pm A lesbian stopped by and said she had seen our fliers for the Pride event and the April Gay Jeopardy Game in Kroger (nice to know our publicity system works!). She took some literature and signed up for our email list. She said her friends in Columbus couldn't believe that there was a GSA in Knox County.
4:56 pm A group of young kids (12-14) walked past, and a boy read the sign, "Knox County Gay-Straight Alliance . . . I'm very straight. I am not gay."
5:18 pm A lady stopped by with her kids, took some literature, and signed up for our email list.
5:20 pm The Mullendores stopped by :). We got to meet their son, Seth.
5:25 pm Ted Ryan (the man from the Wordless Book booth) came back to our booth, and a 25-minute conversation ensued. He said he didn't want to argue but took issue with Larry's sign that read, "We are all children of God." He showed Larry a verse in the Bible that he construed to mean that you are not a child of god unless you are Christian and accept Jesus as your savior. He did eventually admit that God created us all and said, "but we aren't living the way we should." Larry agreed that none of us are perfect.
Then he told us a story about how he and his religious friends wet to protest a strip club in Mansfield, and how the strip club people kept quoting "Judge not lest ye be judged." He did not appreciate their quoting that passage and dismissed them. (But why were the passages that Mr. Ryan quoted somehow more valid than that one? I did not ask him that, but I wish I had.)
Kate asked him where he was from, what church he was from, and what the Wordless book was all about, to which he said it was an enterprise of "child evangelism." (And people talk about how WE want to convert CHILDREN!) Kate engaged him in another conversation on how he felt about Jewish people. He said, "I feel for them the same way I feel about you--I want to share my message about Jesus with you."
Throughout the entire conversation, he was very calm and polite, never mean, but steadfast in his convictions. I give him credit for remaining polite.
He did go on to talk about how he believed homosexuality is a sin and that people are born as sinners, attracted to sin. He gave examples of people raping people, beating their children, all because they are attracted to sin. That was when I realized that our fundamental disagreement is simple: He believes that being gay is a sin on par with other things I certainly detest--rape, murder, violence--and I believe that being gay is not a sin. I wish I had realized our simple disagreement then and said something. We could have agreed to disagree at that point and been done with it.
Larry shared his story with this man about being born gay, and Kate shared her feelings about being gay, too. I said to him that no one in their right mind would choose this.
6:23 pm Another person passing by asked us the now classic question, "Are you for gays?" Kate: "Yes." Smiling, the lady replied, "Just wanted to know, passed by earlier this week and we weren't sure." Kate: "Thanks for asking."
Soon after, teenage boys made the rock concert devil horns and gave us a whoop. Good stuff!
6:42 pm A man with his son said he gets our newsletter and is supportive. He also commented on Larry's signs, and told us a story about when he was in the military: There was a gay man named Ray who everyone called "Gay Ray" and nobody messed with him. So nice to have straight allies stop by and share their stories with us, too!
7:00 pm The Wargas stopped by the booth. Great to have such great friends! :)
7:08 A young lady stopped by and asked, "Do you have the blue and yellow [HRC] stickers? I had one on my old care but need one for my new one." She did take an EO bumper sticker, but we did not have any HRC ones.
A little later, A man asked if Dawn was here, and then told us that he was setting up a policy on sexual orientation at his church and took literature. What a nice, supportive guy!
7:35 pm My friend, the owner of Action Waste, stopped by and enthusiastically introduced me to his son, Jared. Nice folks! I highly recommend Action Waste. This company was the one who helped sponsor the Mount Vernon street clean-up project that the GSA participated in a few months ago.
7:38 pm A mysterious kid rushed by the booth and said to Larry, "I was told by the carnies to give you this" and gave hima poster of a naked woman on a beach. Hmmm. . .
7:51 pm Larry is so popular! I met more of his friends, Art and Shelly, from Faith Lutheran.
7:58 pm The mom & a friend of a friend of the GSA stopped by and gave us a donation.
8:25 pm A teenage girl named Brooklyn came by and said she had a few questions for us. She asked us what we belived regarding the Bible and Jesus, to which Kate replied: "I'm not a Christian." Larry told his story about it not being a choice. She said that the Bible shows that God says marriage is between a man and a woman. She asked, "Do you believe that God is all powerful? Then you should believe that be can change you." The conversation moved on to a discussion of biblical passages. When she was done, she politely shook Larry's hand, and she did take a Soulforce book. Hopefully she will read it.
As it got really close to closing time, two ladies we met last year stopped by to show their support, as did another small group of people. What a nice way to end the night!
I did not work Friday (today, the day I am posting this), but I heard that Larry and Kate got lambasted by two separate groups of teens. Wish I could have been there to help, but I tend to clam up anyhow and don't think of what to say until after they all leave. So stay posted, I am sure Kate will type her latest experiences soon.
Thank you for reading our blog entries, and thanks for your support.
Thursday, July 30, 2009
Day 4 at the Fair - Wednesday, July 29, 2009
11:15am A young woman stopped by and chatted for a while. She said she supports open mindedness and acceptance.
1:30pm A lady stopped by and said, "I got nothing against nobody. My granddaughter is..."
Tony: "a lesbian?"
Lady: "Yes."
Later she said she was bisexual. "My sister doesn't like it at all. My family disowned me."
4:25pm A lady from the home and garden booth stopped by and said, "It's great to see you here again."
4:30pm Tony made a sign for the empty booth across the aisle from us. It reads "Knox Co. Procrastinators (see you next week)"
5:44pm A teenage boy walked up to us and said, "I have a question - are you for them or against them?"
Robert: "What do you mean by 'them?'"
Boy: "Gays"
Robert: "We support gay people in Knox County."
Boy: "Well, I think you're wrong."
Then he left and came back perhaps a minute later. This time he stayed to have a conversation. Robert took the whole "someone you know is gay and afraid to tell you" approach and this boy just said, "No they aren't. And if they told me that I wouldn't love them." Then after explaining that we don't think there is anything wrong with gay people he just shook his head and said, "the fall of this country..." After another brief interation he said, "Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree" and walked away.
Just then a group of 3 young men walked by and one said, "I'm a supporter!" and waved to us. It was nice to hear that after the conversation with that other boy.
7:35pm Three young women from Fredericktown, two in high school, stopped by to show their support and take literature.
7:37pm Four young people, two of each gender, picked up a bunch of literature from us.
8:02pm Nicole and Alexis stopped by to say "hi." Always nice to see friends.
8:06pm Chris, who lives with his partner in Galion, was really surprised to see an organization in Knox County and may come to our picnic in August.
8:14pm Overheard a kid on the phone saying "Hey, should I sign you up for the gay-straight alliance?" We still deal with the occasional immature teenager. It's amazing to me where different sets of teens stand on these issues. Some are very actively supporters, some are very actively in opposition (generally religious) and many seem to be stuck in that "I'm giggling because I just heard someone say 'gay'" phase.
8:37pm A supportive person from the Main Place booth stopped by to say hello.
8:44pm A woman from Columbus in her 20's with a little boy stopped by. "He just said to me, 'Mom, you're a lesbian.' and I said, 'I know, isn't it cool.'" She was very excited to see us at the fair.
8:49pm A kid passing by the booth with three others said, "These guys are awesome!"
Overall it was another successful day at the fair. All the interactions were civil and pleasant, which is all I can hope for.
1:30pm A lady stopped by and said, "I got nothing against nobody. My granddaughter is..."
Tony: "a lesbian?"
Lady: "Yes."
Later she said she was bisexual. "My sister doesn't like it at all. My family disowned me."
4:25pm A lady from the home and garden booth stopped by and said, "It's great to see you here again."
4:30pm Tony made a sign for the empty booth across the aisle from us. It reads "Knox Co. Procrastinators (see you next week)"
5:44pm A teenage boy walked up to us and said, "I have a question - are you for them or against them?"
Robert: "What do you mean by 'them?'"
Boy: "Gays"
Robert: "We support gay people in Knox County."
Boy: "Well, I think you're wrong."
Then he left and came back perhaps a minute later. This time he stayed to have a conversation. Robert took the whole "someone you know is gay and afraid to tell you" approach and this boy just said, "No they aren't. And if they told me that I wouldn't love them." Then after explaining that we don't think there is anything wrong with gay people he just shook his head and said, "the fall of this country..." After another brief interation he said, "Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree" and walked away.
Just then a group of 3 young men walked by and one said, "I'm a supporter!" and waved to us. It was nice to hear that after the conversation with that other boy.
7:35pm Three young women from Fredericktown, two in high school, stopped by to show their support and take literature.
7:37pm Four young people, two of each gender, picked up a bunch of literature from us.
8:02pm Nicole and Alexis stopped by to say "hi." Always nice to see friends.
8:06pm Chris, who lives with his partner in Galion, was really surprised to see an organization in Knox County and may come to our picnic in August.
8:14pm Overheard a kid on the phone saying "Hey, should I sign you up for the gay-straight alliance?" We still deal with the occasional immature teenager. It's amazing to me where different sets of teens stand on these issues. Some are very actively supporters, some are very actively in opposition (generally religious) and many seem to be stuck in that "I'm giggling because I just heard someone say 'gay'" phase.
8:37pm A supportive person from the Main Place booth stopped by to say hello.
8:44pm A woman from Columbus in her 20's with a little boy stopped by. "He just said to me, 'Mom, you're a lesbian.' and I said, 'I know, isn't it cool.'" She was very excited to see us at the fair.
8:49pm A kid passing by the booth with three others said, "These guys are awesome!"
Overall it was another successful day at the fair. All the interactions were civil and pleasant, which is all I can hope for.
Day 3 at the Fair, part II (Tuesday, July 28, 2009)
3:35pm Two people from the career center, about to graduate as RNs, one man and one woman stopped by and thanked us for being here. They also picked up information.
3:40pm Another visitor - A gay man with his gay roommate. He said he came last year and our booth was one of the reasons he came to the fair again this year.
3:47pm A boy stopped by and took some candy. He then asked his friends, "Hey, do you think this is gay candy?" Larry responded, "Yes, it is!"
3:47pm A lady stopped by, made a generous donation and thanked us for our work.
3:55pm A man walked past the booth saying, "it's all sin..." Victoria's notes say he went on and on being unkind.
At this point the three interactions with the gentlemen from the baptist temple (as explained by Victoria in the last post) took place. After the 8 year old boy, who was sent by the people in the baptist temple's booth showed us the bible verses and explained to our members that we were sinners, left a young teenage girl (12 - 14) came up to Robert sitting at the booth and said, "You just told my brother it's ok to be gay. It's not it's a sin and it's in the bible." Robert actually didn't say that to the boy, he had only just arrived.
6:27pm Sasha from the Freedom Center (which has a booth across the way) stopped by and said, "I just wanted to stop by and say I'm glad you all are here. You're turning a lot of heads and that's a good thing."
6:37pm Ruth came by and talked about how good this is, and told Robert about her gay grandson, who is getting his PhD, and how close he is to their son, who is his gay uncle.
6:43pm Tom stopped by, he goes to the First Congregational church where we hold our meetings. Always nice to see a friendly face.
7:02pm A kid came by and said that people are created to be straight and Robert launched into his response: "You have a friend or family member who is gay and they are afraid to tell you because they are afraid you won't love them anymore." The boy said, "Well, I'd love them anyway." He then asked us if we are gay and when four of us said "yes" he just said, "you're kidding me!"
7:14pm A person stopped by and wanted one of our flags, we gave him some literature.
8:16pm A man named David came by to say that we're using a lot of hate language in our signage in talking about bigots. Robert thanked him for pointing that out and he replied, "maybe I've said too much."
8:18pm A woman with a little boy came by to pick up some literature and took the Soul Force pamphlet.
8:21pm A woman pushing another in a wheelchair said, "We're married. We want to get involved in this." They have a 17 year old son.
8:40pm Monica, Chris and Sophie came to the booth with a couple and their two kids from their church in Centerburg.
3:40pm Another visitor - A gay man with his gay roommate. He said he came last year and our booth was one of the reasons he came to the fair again this year.
3:47pm A boy stopped by and took some candy. He then asked his friends, "Hey, do you think this is gay candy?" Larry responded, "Yes, it is!"
3:47pm A lady stopped by, made a generous donation and thanked us for our work.
3:55pm A man walked past the booth saying, "it's all sin..." Victoria's notes say he went on and on being unkind.
At this point the three interactions with the gentlemen from the baptist temple (as explained by Victoria in the last post) took place. After the 8 year old boy, who was sent by the people in the baptist temple's booth showed us the bible verses and explained to our members that we were sinners, left a young teenage girl (12 - 14) came up to Robert sitting at the booth and said, "You just told my brother it's ok to be gay. It's not it's a sin and it's in the bible." Robert actually didn't say that to the boy, he had only just arrived.
6:27pm Sasha from the Freedom Center (which has a booth across the way) stopped by and said, "I just wanted to stop by and say I'm glad you all are here. You're turning a lot of heads and that's a good thing."
6:37pm Ruth came by and talked about how good this is, and told Robert about her gay grandson, who is getting his PhD, and how close he is to their son, who is his gay uncle.
6:43pm Tom stopped by, he goes to the First Congregational church where we hold our meetings. Always nice to see a friendly face.
7:02pm A kid came by and said that people are created to be straight and Robert launched into his response: "You have a friend or family member who is gay and they are afraid to tell you because they are afraid you won't love them anymore." The boy said, "Well, I'd love them anyway." He then asked us if we are gay and when four of us said "yes" he just said, "you're kidding me!"
7:14pm A person stopped by and wanted one of our flags, we gave him some literature.
8:16pm A man named David came by to say that we're using a lot of hate language in our signage in talking about bigots. Robert thanked him for pointing that out and he replied, "maybe I've said too much."
8:18pm A woman with a little boy came by to pick up some literature and took the Soul Force pamphlet.
8:21pm A woman pushing another in a wheelchair said, "We're married. We want to get involved in this." They have a 17 year old son.
8:40pm Monica, Chris and Sophie came to the booth with a couple and their two kids from their church in Centerburg.
Wednesday, July 29, 2009
Day 3 at the Fair (Tuesday, July 28, 2009), part I
Rissah, a local high school student, met me at 11 to work the first few hours at the fair booth this morning. Tony and Larry joined us a bit later. It was a pretty slow morning, but was had a bit more activity throughout the afternoon. I continue to be pleased with how many wonderfully supportive comments we are receiving. Here are some of the interactions we recorded in the notebook:
11:45 am A sweet man from the Main Place booth stopped by, stayed for quite awhile, read our signs, asked about buying a t-shirt, and said, “I have friends who are that way, and I don’t care. People try to tell me not to hang out with them, but they are my friends. I can choose my friends and they can choose theirs!”
12:07 pm The Nordmoes stopped by. :) Always good to see friends!
2:05 pm Three teenagers stopped by who were generally supportive. It was a good conversation overall—topics ranged from the DGSCA’s involvement has with local churches, to unfair laws and stories of a man they knew who was denied a job just because he is openly gay. I’m encouraged by the open-mindedness of our youth!
2:20 pm Two woman walked by, said “makes sense!” This came from folks who are ostensibly conservative who told us about how they are displeased that bible stories and the pledge of allegiance have been taken out of the schools. As the left, they said “good luck!” and wished us well.
2:45 pm A lady said to a man while passing by the booth: “gay . . . straight . . . gay-straight alliance . . .” as if she were reading something in a foreign language.
3:00 pm A young man from Journey Church (who moved here this past year from Memphis, Tennessee) stopped by and gave us a donation. We chatted with him for a bit. He was wearing a green t-shirt that read, “No other god but you—Journey UBS ’09.” I was really impressed by this young man. Larry asked about his church, and he said, “They are pretty accepting. They are really trying to reach out to people who typically are not inclined to go to church at all.” This sort of interaction gives me so much encouragement. First, it is nice to know that there are churches in the area that are welcoming to all people, including GLBT people. Second, it is nice to know that many of our young people, especially those whose faith is important to them, recognize that their god loves all people and that love is much better than hate.
So the day was going REALLY WELL until around 4:00. In the four o'clock hour, we encountered our first truly awful interactions involving three different sets of people. (I missed the second one entirely because I left the booth when the first group of men said something about gay relationships being less valid and stable than straight relationships. Not sure why that is what made me lose it, but that was when I had had enough. I just could not sit there and take any more of it. Thank goodness for Tony and Larry's patience with these difficult conversations. I feel like maybe I am not cut out for this kind of work after all.) So after 30 minutes or so, and I felt I had calmed myself down I walked back to the booth slowly only to find a man and a little boy going at it with Tony. It was more of the same hateful talk--"being gay is an abomination," "you aren't a real Christian," "it is there in the Bible," "you are corrupting our youth," etc. It turns out the Baptists (from the church on Yauger Road) had sent the kid up to the booth first to start preaching at us, and then the grown-up man came. Who would stoop so low as to use a kid as a pawn to spew hate? This latest interaction I happened upon put me over the edge again, unfortunately just as Robert arrived. Some happy welcome for him to the booth (it was his first shift!). Robert was sweet and comforted me, and soon after, Kate arrived. Once the evening shift was in place, Tony, Larry, and I took off for the evening.
There was one final interaction worth mentioning that happened right before I left. A girl came up to Robert and asked, "Did you tell my brother it is okay to be gay? Because it is not. It is against our religion." Robert asked her, "Well, what if your brother turned out to be gay? Wouldn't you want him to know he is okay?" I guess not all of our youth are as progressive as I would like to think they are.
I heard that Robert took copious notes the rest of the evening so I will try to type those up while I work at the booth today and post them tomorrow. Thanks to all of our allies who have stopped by our booth and shown support. It makes a big difference!
11:45 am A sweet man from the Main Place booth stopped by, stayed for quite awhile, read our signs, asked about buying a t-shirt, and said, “I have friends who are that way, and I don’t care. People try to tell me not to hang out with them, but they are my friends. I can choose my friends and they can choose theirs!”
12:07 pm The Nordmoes stopped by. :) Always good to see friends!
2:05 pm Three teenagers stopped by who were generally supportive. It was a good conversation overall—topics ranged from the DGSCA’s involvement has with local churches, to unfair laws and stories of a man they knew who was denied a job just because he is openly gay. I’m encouraged by the open-mindedness of our youth!
2:20 pm Two woman walked by, said “makes sense!” This came from folks who are ostensibly conservative who told us about how they are displeased that bible stories and the pledge of allegiance have been taken out of the schools. As the left, they said “good luck!” and wished us well.
2:45 pm A lady said to a man while passing by the booth: “gay . . . straight . . . gay-straight alliance . . .” as if she were reading something in a foreign language.
3:00 pm A young man from Journey Church (who moved here this past year from Memphis, Tennessee) stopped by and gave us a donation. We chatted with him for a bit. He was wearing a green t-shirt that read, “No other god but you—Journey UBS ’09.” I was really impressed by this young man. Larry asked about his church, and he said, “They are pretty accepting. They are really trying to reach out to people who typically are not inclined to go to church at all.” This sort of interaction gives me so much encouragement. First, it is nice to know that there are churches in the area that are welcoming to all people, including GLBT people. Second, it is nice to know that many of our young people, especially those whose faith is important to them, recognize that their god loves all people and that love is much better than hate.
So the day was going REALLY WELL until around 4:00. In the four o'clock hour, we encountered our first truly awful interactions involving three different sets of people. (I missed the second one entirely because I left the booth when the first group of men said something about gay relationships being less valid and stable than straight relationships. Not sure why that is what made me lose it, but that was when I had had enough. I just could not sit there and take any more of it. Thank goodness for Tony and Larry's patience with these difficult conversations. I feel like maybe I am not cut out for this kind of work after all.) So after 30 minutes or so, and I felt I had calmed myself down I walked back to the booth slowly only to find a man and a little boy going at it with Tony. It was more of the same hateful talk--"being gay is an abomination," "you aren't a real Christian," "it is there in the Bible," "you are corrupting our youth," etc. It turns out the Baptists (from the church on Yauger Road) had sent the kid up to the booth first to start preaching at us, and then the grown-up man came. Who would stoop so low as to use a kid as a pawn to spew hate? This latest interaction I happened upon put me over the edge again, unfortunately just as Robert arrived. Some happy welcome for him to the booth (it was his first shift!). Robert was sweet and comforted me, and soon after, Kate arrived. Once the evening shift was in place, Tony, Larry, and I took off for the evening.
There was one final interaction worth mentioning that happened right before I left. A girl came up to Robert and asked, "Did you tell my brother it is okay to be gay? Because it is not. It is against our religion." Robert asked her, "Well, what if your brother turned out to be gay? Wouldn't you want him to know he is okay?" I guess not all of our youth are as progressive as I would like to think they are.
I heard that Robert took copious notes the rest of the evening so I will try to type those up while I work at the booth today and post them tomorrow. Thanks to all of our allies who have stopped by our booth and shown support. It makes a big difference!
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